In this conversation, Arsalan and I talked through what CDOs and CTOs need to understand about getting agentic systems into production, what governance failures look like once AI moves from producing outputs to taking actions — sending messages, updating records, executing decisions — and how to find a meaningful win without creating the kind of AI sprawl that haunts organizations for years.

Catherine Brown: You work with enterprises at all stages of AI adoption. Where do most of them actually land when you look at it honestly?

Arsalan Tavakoli-Shiraji: A few different categories. Some are still experimenting — getting their hands on models, running pilots, seeing what's possible. Others have moved further and are automating specific tasks: generating copy, transcribing notes, letting people ask questions of their data. And then there is the much smaller group who has figured out how to design from the ground up with AI capabilities in mind. Most organizations are still in the first two categories. There's a lot of AI sprawl, a lot of AI activity. There's much less AI value.

The big difference is where you start. The ones who are getting to meaningful value start with the outcome they want to drive — greater productivity, a new business capability, risk reduction — and work backwards. They don't start with the technology..